Trump
Lawyer Asks
Carroll of Not
Screaming as
Objections
Sustained at
SDNY Cross
Ends
by
Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book
Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE,
May 1 – When
E. Jean
Carroll
testified on
April 26 on
direct
examination
about Donald
Trump
allegedly
raping her in
Bergdorf
Goodman's in
1996, then
defaming her
in 2019,
Trump's lawyer
Joe Tacopina
repeatedly
objected.
U.S. District
Court for the
Southern
District of
New York
Judge Louis A.
Kaplan denied
most
objections -
and told
Tacopina that
his client
might be
subjecting
himself to
liability
under other
Federal
statutes with
his posts on
Truth Social
(and his son
Eric's
statements).
Now early on
May 1, Trump's
lawyer
Tacopina has
filed an
18-page motion
for a
mistrial.
Motion on
Patreon
here.
Inner
City Press
live tweeted
the direct
testimony,
thread here
Then
on April 27,
the cross
examination,
here
On May 1, the
cross
examination
continued,
concluding
with re-direct
and re-cross.
Tacopina asked
about the
failure to
scream, and
what he called
four reasons
given. Many
more
objections by
Carroll's
counsel were
substained.
Thread here.
OK
- Carroll v.
Trump trial
resumes now,
after sealed
filings (Inner
City Press has
written to the
Court seeking
to
unseal
Judge Kaplan:
The motion I
found on my
desk this
morning from
the defense,
has that now
been filed?
Yes.
[But
what about the
sealed
submissions,
and Inner City
Press' request
to unseal?
documentcloud.org
In Trump Civil
Trial, Motion
to Unseal
Carroll Filing
of Sunday
Night As Inner
City Press
Cites...
Judge
Kaplan: Bring
in the jury.
Jury entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Ms. Carroll,
you're still
under oath.
Proceed.
Tacopina: Ms.
Carroll, you
continued to
shop at
Bergdorf's
after the 1995
or 1996 event
you describe?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina:
You went into
dressing
rooms?
Carroll: I
don't believe
so. Tacoplina:
I refer to Ms.
Carroll's
deposition of
Jan 31 of this
year, you said
you would go
into the
changing
room...
Carroll: I
think I was
thinking about
my niece, it
was all a
changing room
Tacopina:
Since 1995 or
1996, you've
been many
purchases from
Bergdorf's?
Carroll: Not
necessarily
many, but
several.
Tacopina: I'm
going to put
up Exhibit AY
- this is your
document?
Carroll: Yes a
QuickBooks
document by my
sister Candy.
Tacopina:
So there are
four purchases
- fair to say
you were not
afraid of
going to
Bergdorf's?
Carroll:
Correct.
Tacopina: And
at your
niece's
fitting, you
had champagne
with Lisa
Birnback, the
person you
told about the
alleged rape -
and never
thought about
it?
Carroll:
A vision may
have streaked
through my
brain. This
was a happy
occasion. I
wasn't there
to remember
the time in
the dressing
room in 1996.
Tacopina: Did
you talk about
it with Lisa
[Birnbach]?
Carroll: No.
Tacopina:
You remember
the
Apprenctice
show? You were
a fan?
Carroll: Yes I
was impressed.
Ambitious
young business
people
competing,
that's what I
liked. Not him
firing people.
Tacopina: But
you posted
that you were
a big fan...
Carroll: 2 of
my friends
were on
Tacopina:
This Facebook
post says,
Would you have
sex with
Donald Trump
for $17,000 if
he couldn't
speak - you
joked around
about this,
right?
Carroll:
Yes.
Tacopina: You
joked about
having sex
with Mr. Trump
5 years
before. Judge
Kaplan: We all
know the math.
Tacopina:
Your book, it
has a list of
hideous men?
Carroll: It is
a dark satire.
Tacopina:
According to
you, it does
not even
include all
the men you
say assaulted
you? Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge
Kaplan:
Members of the
jury, please
go into the
jury room.
Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Ferrara?
Ferrara: We've
briefed to the
course about
prior sexual
experiences.
The question
could elicit
that... It is
not
appropriate
for the jury
to know of
assaults
outside the
book, even
some in the
book.
Tacopina: That
was the
question
Tacopina:
She testified
to the 21 most
hideous men,
it seemingly
not including
all those who
apparently
assaulted her.
I can tell you
the next
questions....
Judge Kaplan:
I want to hear
your argument.
Tacopina: It
does not
violation 412.
Her book was
in the direct
Judge
Kaplan: There
are cases
saying that
non consensual
sex is covered
by t412. So
why would an
answer this
question be
permissible?
Tacopina: OK,
I will
withdraw the
question...
Carroll's
lawyer: The
book as a
whole is not
in. The
attacks by JJ
and Moonves,
yes
[JJ
is John
Johnson, who
strangling of
Carroll is
described in
the book -
Geraldo was
staying over
too] Judge
Kaplan: Brong
the jury back.
Tacopina asks
about
deposition
answer
[Deposition
played]
Q: Did you
report any of
these assaults
to the police?
Carroll: No
Tacopina:
So you didn't
call the
police?
Carroll: I was
a member of
the silent
generation. I
only called
once. I was
staying in a
farm house and
kids hit Helen
Hayes'
mailbox. I
called the
police because
I thought they
were marring
it. My only
call to the
police
Tacopina:
So you would
call the
police about a
mailbox, but
not about
being raped?
Carroll: I
would not call
about
something I
was ashamed
of. Tacopina:
Strike as
non-responsive.
Carroll's
counsel: It
provides
context.
Tacopina:
But in your
column you
advised
readers to
call the
police?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina:
Let's go
through some
snippets. Ask
E. Jean of May
of 1994, you
advised a
reader, you
gave the NY
rape hot line
number.
Carroll: I
always advised
that
Tacopina:
Here's another
advise column,
August of
2006, do you
recall that?
Carroll: Yes
Carroll's
lawyer:
Nothing on the
exhibit
suggests a
date.
Tacopina:
Please
highlight the
section.
Carroll: It's
an undated
document.
Judge
Kaplan:
This is
cumulative,
move on
Tacopina:
This one has a
date in 2016,
do you recall
this? Carroll:
Yes. Tacopina:
You advised to
call the
police due to
threatening
emails?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: May
of 2017-
Carroll's
counsel:
Objection!
Cumulative!
Judge Kaplan:
Granted.
Tacoplina:
You say Donald
Trump accused
you of lying
about rape to
increase book
sales and
carry out a
political
agenda, &
you claims
it's false?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: But
the story was
in the book to
market it?
Carroll: At
76, I was no
longer going
to be silent
Carroll:
I do not like
Donald Trump
and I thought
that he was a
terrible
president.
Tacopina:
Carol Martin
asked if she
could be
reimbursed for
her travel
from New
Jersey to New
York? Carroll:
Yes. Tacopina:
I'm going to
show you
exhibit BS
[There is
laughter]
Tacopina:
Shortly after
that, you
replied in sum
and substance
that you would
have that
taken care of?
Carroll: I had
no idea how it
would be taken
care of. But I
wanted to
assure her,
she was
worried about
costs of
bridges and
parking, she's
on a fixed
income
Carroll:
I believe they
had a Zoom
meeting, so
there were no
costs.
Tacopina: Then
Carol Martin
said, No more
chats or texts
-- Carroll's
counsel:
Objection. Not
in evidence.
Tacopina: It
goes to state
of mind.
There's a
response.
Carroll's
counsel: We
object
Judge
Kaplan: Let me
see
it...
Tacopina: The
emoji doesn't
show up on the
print out, if
you see --
Judge Kaplan:
Never assume
that I know
about things
like that. I
don't think
this comes in.
Sustained.
Tacopina: Was
Carol Martin's
counsel Noam
Biale--
Objection!
Judge
Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacoplina: Mr.
George Conway
said you
should
seriously
think about
suing Donald
Trump?
Carroll: No.
Tacopina: Let
me read from
your
deposition...
You said, I
had a
conversation
with an actual
lawyer who
said, You
should think
about it?
Carroll:
He explained
to me the two
ways, yes.
Tacopina: You
are aware of
Mr. Conway's
view of Donald
Trump?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: He
recommended
you to an
attorney who
you met two
days later?
Carroll: Yes
Tacopina: You
met with Carol
and Lisa with
the attorney?
Carroll:
We had a
dinner
together. It
wasn't an
official
meeting.
Tacopina: It's
your testimony
you chose to
sue Donald
Trump because
he called you
a liar?
Carroll: He
did more than
that.
Tacopina: I'm
going to play
from a
deposition...
[From
deposition:
Carroll: He
called me a
liar and I
couldn't let
it stand]
Tacopina: In
the book you
also say Les
Mooves of CBS
assaulted you?
Carroll:
Yes.
Tacopina: He's
on your most
hideous men
list?
Carroll:
Yes Tacopina:
You accuse him
of going after
you like an
octopus while
having an
erection?
Carroll: I
wrote octopus,
not erection
Tacopina: You
wrote that he
was "pricking"
Carroll: Yes
Tacopina: Les
Moonves denied
it? Carroll:
To NY
Magazine. He
said it never
happened
Tacopina:
He called you
a liar.
Carroll: He
just denied
it. He didn't
grind my face
into the mud
like Donald
Trump did.
Tacopina: You
didn't sue Les
Moonves --
Judge Kaplan:
This certainly
sounds
repetitious.
You asked this
before.
Tacopina:
If Donald
Trump had said
it was
consensual,
you wouldn't
have viewed it
as him calling
you a liar?
Carroll's
counsel:
Objection!
Argumentative!
Calls for
speculation!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina: Let
me play the
deposition
[From
deposition, Q:
If he said it
was
consensual, he
wouldn't be
calling you a
liar? Carroll:
Right.]
Carroll's
counsel: We
need 7 more
lines, under
the rule of
completeness.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
[From
deposition:
Carroll: at 80
I expect
nothing] I
Carroll: At
least it would
have been
Donald Trump
admitting that
he was
there.
Tacopina: Is
this a good
place to take
our morning
break? Judge
Kaplan: Yes.
15 minutes.
OK,
they're back.
Judge KAPLAN:
What
evidentiary
treats do we
have in store?
Tacopina: We
seek to
introduce this
for Ms.
Carroll's
state of mind,
not that of
Ms. Natasha
Stoynoff...
Judge Kaplan:
If I had a
hard copy, we
could have a
record.
Tacopina:
Here is
exhibit
BT.
Judge Kaplan:
What's on the
screen is just
a subset. What
you have up
here now is
the entirety
of Page 21.
This isn't put
together.
Tacopina:
I'll read it
to you- Judge
Kaplan: It
ends somewhere
on page 31?
Tacopina: No.
On page 23
Judge
Kaplan: I
understand
what you are
trying to do.
Ms. Carroll
asked Ms.
Stoynoff if
Donald Trump
rubbed his
body against
her. You are
trying to say
Ms. Carroll
was trying to
suggest that
Ms. Stoynoff
quote unquote
remember the
event.
At 21, I don't
recall...
Judge
Kaplan: on the
next offered
page, she got,
I don't think
so. Then at
page 37, she
got If he did
I can't
remember it,
I'm trying to
think.
Tacopina: The
first time she
said, I don't
recall him
doing it. And
second, if he
did, then...
Judge
Kaplan: You
should do this
in 5 minutes.
Let's get the
jury. Jury
entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Sorry for the
longer than
expected
interruption.
I think we
have solved
things that
will save
time. We are
on or ahead of
schedule.
Proceed.
Tacopina:
You were
assaulted
several time
but only sued
Donald Trump?
Carroll: Yes.
Judge Kaplan:
Ladies &
gentlemen of
the jury,
there are two
lawsuit. The
first was
brought solely
for
defamation. At
that time Ms
Carroll could
not sue him
for allegedly
raping her
Judge
Kaplan: The
law changed.
She sued on
that, and on
the new
defamation.
Don't worry
about the
first case.
Let' go.
Tacopina: Ms.
Carroll, you
asked Ms.
Stoynoff if
Mr. Trump
grinded on you
- and she
said, I don't
recall --
Carroll's
counsel:
Objection!
Judge
Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina:
After getting
that response,
you--
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina: OK.
After your
book excerpt
you were
contacted by
Anderson
Cooper and
appeared on
CNN - I'm
going to play
an 8 minute
clip.Video
playing
(available on
YouTube, in
some placed
edited...]
In
courtroom:
"Most people
think of rape
as being
sexy." "Let's
take a break."
"You're
fascinating to
talk to."
Tacopina: Most
people don't
of rape as
something
sexy. Do you?
Carroll: Game
of Thrones
shows nine
rapes, 50
attempts. Rape
is everywhere
in our
entertainment
world. It
excites people
and draws an
audience.
Hence I said,
Most people
think of rape
as sexy... But
to me, rape is
the more
violent act
that can be
done
Tacopina:
Ms. Carroll,
are you aware
there is a Law
& Order
episode that
-- Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Come to the
sidebar.
[Whispered,
non-public
sidebar
ensues]
They're
back.
Tacopina: You
are aware
there is a Law
& Order
episode from
2012 about
rape in a
Bergdorf
Goodman's
fitting room?
Carroll: I am
aware.
Tacopina: You
are a fan of
Law &
Order?
Carroll: Yes,
but not SVU,
it's too
violent.
Carroll:
It's an
astonishing
coincidence.
Tacopina: And
you didn't
tell the
writer of the
episode about
your story?
Carroll: No.
Tacopina: You
don't blame
Elle Magazine
for firing
you? Carroll:
I understood
it. But I was
forlorn. They
let me go
after 27
years.
Tacopina:
You are aware
Elle Magazine
says it was a
business
decision?
Carroll: I
agree that it
was about
business --
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina: It's
in a
deposition...
Tacopina:
You sent an
email to your
agent that
after Nina
Garcia, the
editor of
Elle, took
over they cut
your salary
from $10,000
to $5000 a
column. You
were looking
to get out of
your contract,
right?
Carroll: I was
looking for
other work. At
the Atlantic.
Carroll:
My column used
to be in the
well of the
magazine. The
new folks
moved it
around. They
also buried it
online.
Tacopina: They
were mad you
published your
book excerpt
in New York
Magazine?
Carroll:
Yes.
Tacopina: That
was Nina
Garcia?
Carroll: Yes.
Carroll:
When the
president of
the US called
me a liar for
three straight
days, my
trustworthiness
crumbled.
Tacopina: In
your email to
your agent,
you said Nina
Garcia loathed
you? Carroll:
Yes. She
hated me and
she loathed
me.
Tacopina:
Let me refresh
your
recollection.
Page 187 to
189.
Just read it -
[Carroll
starts reading
out loud]
Judge Kaplan:
No, no, this
is just to
refresh.
Tacopina: It's
that Elle
didn't feel
comfortable--
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection! May
we approach?
A: Yes.
After
a whispered
sidebar,
they're back.
Tacopina: Let
me know you a
deposition
from October
2022.
Carroll's
lawyer: We
object to the
hearsay in
this. Judge
Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina: I'll
move on to
damages. Mr.
[John] Johnson
was your last
relationship?
Tacopina:
And you
testified you
haven't had
sex since what
you say
happened with
Mr. Trump?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: You
were asked,
Have you had
any
relationships
since? You
said No,
because Donald
Trump raped
me. Carroll:
Yes. Tacopina:
I'll show you
AQ
Judge
Kaplan: Do you
have a hard
copy?
Tacopina: Just
a moment. The
good news,
your Honor, is
that this is
going to be
the last time
we'll be doing
this.
Carroll's
counsel: We
would not
object. Audio:
Carroll: Maybe
I didn't have
sex since
because I
lacked luck
Judge
Kaplan: You
didn't play
the whole
excerpt.
Tacopina reads
more, about
Carroll not
meeting the
right person.
Then asks,
You're now
asking for
emotional
damages from
the alleged
rape? Carroll:
Yes.
Tacopina:
You wrote, I
am fine, I
never
suffered. That
was the public
E. Jean, not
the private?
Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: That
was from your
book? Judge
Kaplan: That's
established.
Carroll: I
didn't reveal
my whole self,
I held
something
back.
Carroll:
I put on the
go get 'em
face that I've
always had.
Tacopina: Your
perception
only started
to change in
2017? Carroll:
I was coming
to understand
some terrible
things.
Tacopina: It
was the MeToo
movement and
the Harvey
Weinstein
story?
Carroll: Yes
Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Tacopina are
we getting
close?
Tacopina:
Close. Judge
Kaplan: Define
close.
Tacopina: 10
or 15 minutes.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's take a
break. Thread
will continue.
They're
back. Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Tacopina, you
said you'd be
done by lunch.
Tacopina: It
got a little
complicated. I
haven't had
lunch Judge
Kaplan: You
want to keep
you hungry
(laughs). Your
colleague
could get your
Kansas City
ribs.
Jury
entering!
Tacopina: On
Jan 31, 2023
you testified
things changed
in 2016?
Carroll: I had
to get used to
seeing Donald
Trump
everywhere.
Tacopina: I'll
show you
defense
exhibit
CU.
Judge Kaplan:
Can we move
this along?
Tacopina:
We've moved a
lot
Tacopina:
We're putting
in this
Instagram
post. It's
about the
hideous men of
NYC walking
tour. What's
that? Carroll:
NYC has a best
walking tours.
So I thought
of one about
hideous men.
You'd start at
Tiffany's.
Women were
told not to
speak at
meetings.
Carroll:
Then we'd go
to NBC, then
Fox News, then
CBS. Then
where Studio
54 was.
Tacopina: You
posted this
picture with
the man in the
Donald Trump
mask. You're
smiling.
You're having
a wonderful
time? Carroll:
It was a very
instructive
tour.
Tacopina:
One last
podcast. [On
audio, Carroll
says, it's
been
fabulous.]
Tacopina: No
futher
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
Re-direct.
Carroll's
lawyer: Have
you had
negative
moments?
Carroll: Yes
but I've never
mentioned
them.
Carroll's
lawyer: How do
you feel about
having found
some happiness
later in life?
Carroll: I
feel good
about it.
That's the
goal of all of
us in this
courtroom, to
find a little
bit of
happiness....
This is a
satisfying
moment for me,
to be here
(voice breaks)
Carroll:
When people
ask me how I
am, I'm more
concerned with
them. I don't
want to, as
they say,
unload on
them. Counsel:
You said your
desire for
desire was
killed.
Carroll: I
believe in
luck. You make
your own. I
was getting in
my own way. I
did not flirt.
Carroll's
lawyer: Did
you ever see
that Law &
Order SVU
episode?
Carroll: No.
Carroll's
lawyer: Mr.
Tacopina asked
you, Why
didn't you
scream, yes?
Carroll: I was
amazed that a
woman be asked
that in 2023.
Tacopina:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
I'll allow it.
Counsel:
Why didn't you
take your own
advice?
Carroll:
Donald Trump
was very
powerful.
Women of my
age just took
our licks and
went on. I've
looked this
up, at the
National --
Tacopina:
Objection!
Carroll's
lawyer: OK,
how many men
on your
hideous men
list? Carroll:
21. Counsel:
How old are
you:
Carroll:
Almost 80.
Most of the
men I've met
are not
hideous.
Counsel:
Ever a doubt
Mr. Trump
penetrate you
with his
fingers?
Carroll: No
doubt
Carroll's
lawyer:
Plaintiff
offers Exhibit
52.
Judge Kaplan:
Received.
Carroll's
lawyer: It's
an email from
Steph, what
does it stay.
Carroll: It
says, You're
going to get
hurt.
Carroll's
lawyer: No
further
questions.
Judge
Kaplan: Any
re-cross?
Tacopino:
Briefly. Ms.
Carroll, are
you happy?
Carroll: With
overtones.
Tacopino: I am
not judging
you for not
screaming, but
for given four
reasons. Judge
Kaplan: Jury
will
disregard. Not
an appropriate
question. Move
on.
Tacopina:
You prepared
with a list of
Q&A,
anticipating
you'd be asked
why you didn't
scream?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Argumentative.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained. Ms.
Carroll you
are excused.
Jurors,
tomorrow 10
am.
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this site.
Court
art: Tacopina
and Judge
Kaplan,
courtesy to
Inner City
Press from
Elizabeth
Williams
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