Trump
Lawyer Grills
Jessica Leeds
of Airplane
Allegation As
Trump Not
Coming
Confirmed
by
Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book
Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE,
May 2 – When
E. Jean
Carroll
testified on
April 26 on
direct
examination
about Donald
Trump
allegedly
raping her in
Bergdorf
Goodman's in
1996, then
defaming her
in 2019,
Trump's lawyer
Joe Tacopina
repeatedly
objected.
U.S. District
Court for the
Southern
District of
New York
Judge Louis A.
Kaplan denied
most
objections -
and told
Tacopina that
his client
might be
subjecting
himself to
liability
under other
Federal
statutes with
his posts on
Truth Social
(and his son
Eric's
statements).
Now early on
May 1, Trump's
lawyer
Tacopina has
filed an
18-page motion
for a
mistrial.
Motion on
Patreon
here.
Inner
City Press
live tweeted
the direct
testimony,
thread here
Then
on April 27,
the cross
examination,
here
On May 1, the
cross
examination
continued,
Thread here.
May
2 saw Lisa
Birnbach and
Jessica Leeds,
a Bergdorf
supervisor and
the
plaintiff's
psychological
expert,
concluding
with
confirmation
that Trump
will not be
coming to the
trial. Thread
here:
OK
- Carroll v.
Trump trial
resuming now;
next
plaintiff's
witness taking
the stand.
Inner City
Press may have
videoed
witness' entry
on Worth
Street, is
covering the
case
Jury
entering!
Judge
Kaplan: Call
your next
witness. It's
Lisa Birnbach.
Carroll's
counsel: How
long has you
known Ms
Carroll?
Birnbach: 32
or 33 years
Counsel: Did
Ms Carroll
tell you about
an encounter
at Bergdorf's?
Birnbach: Yes.
In the Spring
of 1996, I
think
Counsel:
Have you
published?
Birnbach: Yes.
In the New
Yorker,
Parade, Spy,
TV Guide...
Counsel: What
was Spy?
Birnbach: A
satirical
magazine.
Counsel:
Books?
Birnback: 22.
About the way
we live. Not
political.
Birnbach:
I was the host
on a VH1 show
I'm sure no
one remembers,
The Whole
Enchilada.
Counsel: How
did you meet
Ms. Carroll?
Birnbach: We
had a couple
of dinners
with another
couple. I had
admired her
stylish
reporting in
Outside
Magazine.
Counsel:
What was her
job? Birnbach:
Ask E. Jean
and a TV show
by the same
name. I was on
it once... I
met Donald
Trump at a
birthday
party. He
invited me to
write a story
about
Mar-a-Lago, he
was turning it
into a club.
He called me
about once a
month
Counsel:
Did you write
it? Birnbach:
Yes. I
traveled to
Mar-a-Lago on
Mr. Trump's
private plane
in late
January 1996.
I stayed two
nights. I had
a tape
recorder and
recorded a
stream of
consciousness
of Mr. Trump
as he gave me
a tour. It was
"Mi Casa Tu
Casa"
Counsel:
Did Donald
Trump call you
after the
article came
out? Birnbach:
No, but one of
his assistants
did. Counsel:
What were you
doing when Ms.
Carroll called
you about
being
assaulted?
Birnbach: I
was feeding my
children 6 and
3. It was
between 6 and
7 pm.
Counsel:
What did Ms.
Carroll say?
Birnbach: She
said, Lisa
you're not
going to
believe what
happened. She
was breathing
hard. It
sounded like
she had a
surge of
adrenaline...
She told me
her story, how
they ended up
in the
lingerie
department. I
was surprised.
Counsel:
What did you
think?
Birnbach: That
is was kinda
nutty. She
told me she
told Donald
Trump, why
don't you try
it on? They
were in the
dressing room
& he
slammed her
against the
wall and he
slammed his
arm and
shoulder
against her
and pulled
down her
tights
Birnbach:
Then he
penetrated
her. Counsel:
How? Birnbach:
With his
p*nis. I knew
my children
didn't know
the word but I
ducked out and
told her, E.
Jean, he raped
you. I'll take
you to the
police. She
said she
didn't want to
go. We had a
fight. She
said, We
fought
Counsel:
How long was
the call?
Birnbach: Four
minutes or so.
Then I
reheated my
kids nuggets.
She didn't
want to tell
anyone else. I
honored it.
Counsel: Did
anyone else
you knew tell
you they were
assaulted?
Trump's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
I'll allow it
Birnbach:
Yes, other
woman friends
in the mid 90s
told me they
had been
assaulted by
men. Counsel:
Did you and Ms
Carroll ever
discuss the
assault again?
Birnbach: Not
under 2019.
Counsel: Did
she discuss
any romantic
relationships
with you?
Birnbach: No.
Counsel:
Have you
donated money
to political
candidates?
Birnbach: Yes.
Hillary
Clinton.
Counsel: Where
were you on
election night
2016?
Birnbach: My
apartment on
West End
Avenue with 25
firends
including E.
Jean. Counsel:
Any Trump
supporters
there?
Birnbach: No
Counsel:
Did you have
dinner with Ms
Carroll &
Carol Martin?
Birnbach: Yes,
at Carmine's
restaurant on
Broadway. She
gave us blue
envelopes with
ribbons on
them. She
said, Read it
but don't show
anyone. I
never read it
- I felt it
might create
responsibilities
Birnbach:
I wrote a New
Yorker
magazine Talk
of the Town
piece about E.
Jean's Hideous
Men of New
York tour. She
didn't mention
Donald Trump.
Counsel: What
was the title?
Birnbach: It
had the name
Hideous Men on
it.
[An
aside - before
ouster from
United Nations
for exposing
corruption of
current
Secretary
General
Antonio
Guterres ,
this New
Yorker Talk of
the Town, here
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/09/26/the-beat
Counsel:
When you saw
the excerpt,
did it match
what Ms.
Carroll told
you in 1996?
Birnbach: It
did. I called
her and told
her what a
good piece it
was. I said,
Tell the fact
checkers I
don't want to
be named.
Trump was
president with
a following
that was rude
Counsel:
Let me know
you Exhibit
AJ. Was this
text sent
before or
after the
excerpt?
Birnbach:
After. Megan
is Megan
Twohey, the
reporter. E.
Jean had sent
me each
chapter as an
email.
Counsel: From
where?
Birnbach: She
was in
intensive
care.
Counsel:
Did they come
a time you
agreed to be
publicly
identified as
the friend she
told?
Birnbach: Yes.
After E. Jean
invited Carol
and I to a
lunch with New
York Times
reporters who
wanted to
write about
what happened
to her. I was
named in the
NY Times
Birnbach:
Megan Twhohey
interviewed me
and Ms. Martin
in my
apartment.
They put it on
The Daily... I
was very
active on
Twitter at
that time. I
received a lot
of
anti-Semitic
attacks after
the interview.
Counsel:
What did you
think of the
book?
Birnbach: I
wasn't into
the mix of
travelogue and
hard stories.
[Note: the
book does
repeatedly
mention and
praise Amy's
Burritos in
motel
microwaves
with
commentary
about p*rn
watchers in
the desk
chairs]
Counsel:
Are you
mentioned in
the book?
Birnbach: I'm
one of the
[three] people
she dedicated
the book to.
And our
wedding
shopping trip
for Lauren, E.
Jean's niece,
to
Bergdorf's.
Counsel: Did
you think of
the assault?
Birnbach: No.
It was about
Lauren.
Counsel:
Did you do
media about
Donald Trump's
assault?
Birnbach: Yes.
NPR, then CNN,
Anderson
Cooper.
Counsel: Did
you write
about this on
Facebook?
Birnbach: I
haven't been
on Facebook
for some
years. But I
probably did.
I had a
podcast too, 5
Things
Counsel:
Did you
discuss Donald
Trump on your
podcast, as a
narcissistic
psychopath and
Vladimir
Putin's agent?
Birnbach:
Probably yes.
My guests were
not fans of
Donald Trump
either.
Birnbach:
I said those
things right
after the
January 6
insurrection
at the Capitol
-- Trump's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Overruled.
Counsel: Did
you say, The
cult of Trump
will decline
and he will be
dealing with a
lot of
lawsuits?
Birnbach: Yes.
Birnbach:
The guy had
done a lot of
bad things. I
was hoping he
would have to
account for
them Counsel:
When did your
podcast end?
Birnbach: When
Joe Biden was
president.
Counsel: Why
are you
testifying
here?
Trump's
lawyer:
Objection.
Irrelevant.
Judge:
Overruled
Birnbach: I'm
here because
my friend is
telling the
truth.
Counsel: No
further
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
15 minute
break.
They're
back. Judge
Kaplan:
Cross-examination.
Trump's
lawyer: You
only
contribute to
Democrats?
Birnbach: I
think I may
once have
contributed to
a pro-choice
Republican.
Trump's
lawyer: Let's
go to the
deposition...
Trump's
lawyer
(reading from
the
deposition)
You said only
to Democrats.
You are not a
fan of Donald
Trump?
Birnbach:
Right Trump's
lawyer: On
Facebook, you
said, Does it
get worse than
Trump, this
slimeball?
I've never
felt the
hatred I feel
toward this
person
Trump's
lawyer: On
your podcast
with Kurt
Anderson, you
said you think
about Trump
every hour and
"when I sleep"
[Birnbach
laughs]
Trump's
lawyer: Did
you say that?
Birnbach: I
did. Trump's
lawyer: And
with Alexandra
Pelosi, you
said, Trump is
like herpes
Trump's
lawyer: It's
evidence of
bias, your
Honor. Judge
Kaplan: You
don't say. But
it's a
compound
question.
Trump's
lawyer: OK,
with Chris
Wipple, you
said, the cult
of Trump will
decline, he'll
deal with
lawsuits. They
think he'll
run for
president.
That's crap
Trump's
lawyer: And
you said, He's
demented and a
Russian agent.
He's bad. Did
you make that
statement?
Birnbach: Yes.
Trump's
lawyer: In
your resident
with Ms.
Carroll
president --
Judge
Kaplan: You've
promoted her.
Trump's
lawyer: I
meant, Present
Trump's
lawyer: Let's
go to the
deposition,
You were asked
if you forgot
the year --
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge
Kaplan:
Sustained. No
foundation
laid. Here's
what the
question was,
page 45: Is it
your testimony
that it never
came up in
your mind.
Answer: It did
not come up.
Trump's
lawyer: That's
why I brought
it up. Judge
Kaplan: That's
why I sustain
the objection
Trump's
lawyer: You do
remember it
now, do you
not? Judge
Kaplan:
Remember what?
Trump's
lawyer: The
incident at
Bergdorf's.
Birnbach: It
came back to
me. Trump's
lawyer: What
is this?
Defendant's DI
Birnbach: An
email from Ms.
Carroll about
our event at
The Wing
Trump's
lawyer: You
wrote, the
main thing is
to SELL BOOKS,
yes? Birnbach:
She was on a
book
tour.
That's how
writers make
money. Trump's
lawyer: Thank
you. That's
all I have.
Judge Kaplan:
Re-direct.
Carroll's
lawyer: Mr
Brandt just
asked you
about the book
tour
Birnbach:
Due to
security
concerns, she
could not do a
book tour.
Carroll's
lawyer: Why?
Birnbach:
Followers of
Mr. Trump
would --
Brandt:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Overruled.
Birnbach: They
were
threatening
her
Carroll's
lawyer: In
1996, was
Donald Trump
known as a
political
figure?
Birnbach: Not
at all.
Carroll's
lawyer: In
this message
you said,
Megan doesn't
like Sardi's.
What was this
lunch?
Birnbach: The
interview with
the NYT
reporter.
Birnbach:
In 1996 Trump
was not
political, he
was a real
estate guy who
harassed a lot
of women
Brandt: Move
to strike. 403
Judge Kaplan:
Disregard the
part after "a
real estate
guy."
Carroll's
lawyer: Would
you lie to
stop Trump
from being
president?
Birnbach: No
Judge
Kaplan:
Re-cross.
Brandt: In
2019 he was a
political
figure, the
president,
right?
Birnbach: Yes.
Brandt:
Nothing
further. Judge
Kaplan: Next
witness.
Carroll's
lawyer
Ferrara:
Plaintiff
calls Jessica
Leeds.
Ferrara:
What was your
job? Leeds: A
stock broker
at 20 Broad
near Wall St
Ferrara: Where
did you meet
Donald Trump?
Leeds: On a
plane in 1979
or 1978. From
Dallas or
Atlanta. It
was midday. I
was 37. [Photo
of Leeds with
short hair.
She: then my
hair was long]
Leeds:
I was invited
up to the
first class
cabin. I was
the only woman
there. Donald
Trump
introduced
himself.
Ferrara: Did
you know of
him? Leeds:
No. I was
living in
Connecticut.
They served a
very nice
meal, as
Braniff was
known for.
Leeds:
Donald Trump
grabbed me and
groped me. It
was like he
had forty
zillion hands.
He put his
hand up my
skirt. That's
gave me a
jolt. I
wiggled out
and stormed
back to coach.
Ferrara: Did
anyone say
anything?
Leeds: The guy
on the aisle,
his eyes were
saucers
Ferrara:
Have you given
interviews
about this?
And saying it
took long?
Leeds: I told
Anderson
Cooper it was
fifteen
minutes. But
it was
seconds.
Ferrara: On
plane, did you
tell anyone.
Leeds: No. It
never occurred
to me.
Leeds:
It was
Anderson
Cooper who
asked Trump
the question
during the
debate with
Hillary... So
I agreed to be
on his show. I
had written a
letter to the
NYT and Megan
Twohey called
me, said she'd
said a
reporter over.
He came over,
they brought a
photographer
Leeds:
I don't know
if you've ever
had the
experience of
picking up a
newspaper and
seeing your
face on the
front page.
Wow. I was
amazed.
Ferrara:
What's this?
Leeds:
The debate
where Anderson
Cooper asked
him if he had
harassed a
woman.Ferrara:
Plaintiff's
offer it as an
exhibit.
Tacopina:
Objection.
Ferrara: Let's
look at the
transcript.
It's only 2
minutes 27
seconds. Judge
Kaplan: OK.
Tacopina: We
don't object,
if only this
segment.
[Video of
Cooper asking
about Access
Hollywood
tape]
Trump
(in Cooper
interview)
This was
locker room
talk. We have
a world of
ISIS chopping
of heads,
drowning
people in
steel cages. I
will knock the
hell out of
ISIS Anderson
Cooper: Are
you saying
what you said
on the bus 11
years ago, you
never did
that? Trump:
No
Back
in court:
Ferrara: Ms.
Leeds, did you
watch the
debate? Leeds:
Yes. I was
furious. What
was done to
me... There
was foreign
press, even
from Japan and
France. A
couple more
appearances on
CNN &
MSNBC.
Ferrara: What
was the
response?
Leeds: I don't
do Facebook
Leeds:
People say,
Thank you.
Ferrara: When
did the NYT
run your
story? Leeds:
October 2016.
I heard he
said he would
never attack
me. But he was
looking at a
76 year old
woman, not
that 37 year
old I was.
Judge Kaplan:
Lunch break
till 2 pm.
Thread will
continue
OK
- they are
back.
Tacopina: Your
Honor, there's
something we
need to speak
with you
about. Can we
have a
sidebar? Judge
Kaplan:
Jurors, as you
were walking
in, the
lawyers told
me they need
to have a
discussion.
Please bear
with us
[Sidebar
is over.]
Judge Kaplan:
Proceed.
Carroll's
lawyer
Ferrara: Ms
Leeds, what is
this? Leeds:
It's the Trump
rally at which
he made his
comments --
Ferrara: I
asked a bad
question, I
apologize.
Just, do you
recognize the
CD? Leeds: It
has my
initials on
it.
Ferrara:
It's Exhibit
31 and 31-T
Judge Kaplan:
They are
received.
[On screen,
CSPAN, Trump
saying: "They
come up with
people who
say, I was
with Donald
Trump on an
airplane in
1980. Believe
me, she would
not be my
first
choice."]
Leeds: I was
sure it was
me.
Ferrara:
Do you
consider
yourself
political
active? Leeds:
Yes. I vote in
every
election,
whether I know
anything or
not.
Ferrara: Are
you in a
party? Leeds:
I am a
Democrat. I
contributed to
Raphael
Warnock and
Stacey Abrams
and whoever
ran against
Susan Collins
Ferrara:
Have you
spoken with
Ms. Carroll?
Leeds: She
interviewed me
by Zoom. She's
an
acquaintance,
not a friend.
Ferrara: Did
you ever speak
with Donald
Trump again?
Leeds: In 1981
at a
fundraiser. I
had a nice
dress.
Trump and
Ivana,
pregnant, came
up
Leeds:
Trump said, I
remember you,
you're that
c*nt from the
airplane. It
was like cold
water over me.
He walked away
and I went
home. Ferrara:
Nothing
further. Judge
Kaplan: Cross
examination.
Tacopina: You
didn't tell
anyone for
year, but
you're
political
Tacopina:
You knew
Donald Trump
was talking
about running
but you didn't
say anything?
Leeds:
Correct.
Tacopina: Then
when he ran,
you talked
about it to
your book
club? Leeds:
Yes.
Tacopina:
During the
debate you
said, What an
as*hole, and
jumped up and
down?
Tacopina:
You did an
interview with
the NYT and
said you hoped
your story
would
influence the
election
against Donald
Trump? Leeds:
Correct.
Tacopina: You
did any
interview with
NPR, Audie
Cornish?
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina:
And you did an
interview with
Democracy Now,
Amy Goodwin?
[sic - it's
Goodman, like
Bergdorf]
Leeds:
Yes.
Tacopina: You
don't want to
see Donald
Trump regain
the
presidency?
Leeds: I
don't.
Tacopina: Can
you give us an
exact date?
Leeds: No, I
cannot.
Tacopina: You
don't remember
where you were
flying in
from? Leeds: I
do not.
Tacopina: It's
your story a
man introduced
himself to you
as being
Donald Trump.
Leeds: He was
some random
guy on a plane
Tacopina:
You told
Anderson
Cooper the
tussle lasted
15 minutes?
Leeds: Yes
Tacopina: Your
story is that
a passenger
saw it? Leeds:
Yes Tacopina:
When you say
he touched
your knee-
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained. The
word knee is
only from you
Tacopina: OK,
up the skirt
Tacopina:
You didn't say
anything, when
you got back
to your seat?
Leeds:
No.
Tacopina:
You'd never
heard of him,
but you
remembered the
name for all
these years?
Leeds:
Yes.
Tacopina: And
at the gala,
you say Donald
Trump next to
his wife said
c*nt to you?
Yes.
Tacopina:
You say Donald
Trump
remembered
you, despite
shorter hair,
different
clothes-
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Tacopina: You
did an
interview with
Democracy Now?
Leeds: I went
to their
studio.
Tacopina: You
said, you
remember
details
Tacopina:
You told
Anderson
Cooper it was
in 1979.
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina: You
told Ms.
Carroll it was
1980 or 1979?
Leeds: Yes.
Tacopina: You
can't name one
witness to
corroborate?
Leeds: No.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's move on.
Tacopina:
Nothing
further your
Honor. Judge
Kaplan:
Re-direct.
Ferrara: You
remember every
detail? Leeds:
Yes I do.
Ferrara: Why
not tell your
bosses?
Leeds:
My boss would
say, too bad,
how about
lunch? It was
a good job.
Ferrara: Why
did you call
it a pass?
Leeds: It's
easier to
think of it
that way.
Ferrara: To be
clear, do you
now consider
it a pass?
Tacopina:
Objection!
Leading! Judge
Kaplan:
Overruled.
Leeds: No, it
was not a
pass.
Ferrara:
Do you think
you brought on
what he did?
Leeds: No. I
don't know
what he
perceived. I
think he was
just bored.
Ferrara:
Nothing
further. Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Tacopina?
Tacopina: No
re-cross.
Judge Kaplan:
Next witness.
It's Robert
Solerno.
Carroll's
lawyer
Crowley: Are
you retired?
Solerno: Yes.
Crowley: Where
were you in
the mid 90s?
Solerno:
Bergdorf
Goodman.
Crowley: How
many floors
did it have
then? Solerno:
10, 8
accessible by
escalator to
the public
Crowley:
How big were
the fitting
rooms?
Solerno:
Large. On the
fourth floor,
they had fax
machines.
Jackie Kennedy
used to come
and do
business
there.
Crowley: Were
the escalators
open or walled
off? Solerno:
Walled off,
structural
walls
Crowley:
You saw Donald
Trump in the
store?
Solerno: Once
or twice.
Crowley: No
further
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's take our
afternoon
break. 15
minutes. Note:
now rushing
other cases -
will return
here when they
do. Thread
will continue
OK,
now they're
back. Trump's
lawyer: You
say you saw
Donald Trump
in the women's
wear section
of Bergdorf
Goodman? Is
there a
separate-
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained as
to form.
Strike it
Trump's
lawyer: Where
did you see
Donald Trump
in the mid
90s? Solerno:
5th floor
Trump's
lawyer Chad
Seigel:
Bergdorf's
prided itself
on providing
attentive
customer
service?
Solerno:
That's
correct.
Seigel: Why
were sales
associated
called
personal
shoppers?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
This is all
repetition.
Seigel:
Do you have
any idea how
many staff
worked there
on a Thursday
night? Judge
Kaplan: Does
he have any
idea? Is that
where we are?
Seigel: Were
you
responsible
for security?
Solerno: Yes.
Seigel:
Did the topic
of shoplifting
ever come up?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Seigel: Any
measure to
ensure clients
wouldn't steal
merchandise?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Trump's
lawyer Seigel:
There were
cameras on the
1st floor?
Solerno: Yes.
Seigel: Back
in the day,
the VHS tapes
were taped
over?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
Basis?
Carroll's
lawyer: "Back
in the day"
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Seigel:
Nothing
further
Judge
Kaplan: Next
witness. It's
Dr Leslie
Lebowitz,
clinical
psychologist.
Carroll's
counsel: Do
you have a
specialization?
Lebowitz:
Trauma.
Carroll's
counsel: We're
going talk a
lot about that
today and
probably
tomorrow
Dr.
Lebowitz: I
worked on the
issue of
sexual abuse
in the
military.
Carroll's
counsel: How
many times
have you been
engaged to
work on a case
and then
withdrawn?
Lebowitz: Five
or six. Some
were
prosecutions
for rape but I
did not feel
confident in
it
Lebowitz:
In another, a
murder case,
they'd thought
trauma might
explain it but
I thought
there could be
another
explanation,
personality
disorder.
Carroll's
counsel: In
this case,
were you asked
to provide an
expert opinion
for E. Jean
Carroll?
Lebowitz: Yes.
Lebowitz:
She has
suffered from
painful
memories. A
diminishment
in how she
thought about
herself.
Avoidance
symptom,
curtailing her
romantic
intimate life.
Carroll's
lawyer: We're
going to talk
much more
about that.
Jury
leaves for
day.
Carroll's
lawyer: We
will rest
Thursday
midday. Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Tacopina, will
Mr. Trump
becoming?
Tacopina: No.
Judge Kaplan:
It's his call.
Tacopina: Ms.
Carroll's
sister, what's
the point of
her testimony?
I'm just
teeing it up.
Judge
Kaplan: I'll
do the
charging
conference
either Friday
or Monday,
I'll let you
know.
Judge
leaves.
More
including on
percentage of
objections
sustained on
Substack here
Watch
this site.
Court
art: Tacopina
and Judge
Kaplan,
courtesy to
Inner City
Press from
Elizabeth
Williams
***
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