Trump
Lawyer Asks
Candy Carroll
If She Heard
as Access
Hollywood Tape
Plays for SDNY
Jury
by
Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book
Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE,
May 3 – When
E. Jean
Carroll
testified on
April 26 on
direct
examination
about Donald
Trump
allegedly
raping her in
Bergdorf
Goodman's in
1996, then
defaming her
in 2019,
Trump's lawyer
Joe Tacopina
repeatedly
objected.
U.S. District
Court for the
Southern
District of
New York
Judge Louis A.
Kaplan denied
most
objections -
and told
Tacopina that
his client
might be
subjecting
himself to
liability
under other
Federal
statutes with
his posts on
Truth Social
(and his son
Eric's
statements).
Now early on
May 1, Trump's
lawyer
Tacopina has
filed an
18-page motion
for a
mistrial.
Motion on
Patreon
here.
Inner
City Press
live tweeted
the direct
testimony,
thread here
Then
on April 27,
the cross
examination,
here
On May 1, the
cross
examination
continued,
Thread here.
May
2 saw Lisa
Birnbach and
Jessica Leeds,
a Bergdorf
supervisor and
the
plaintiff's
psychological
expert,
concluding
with
confirmation
that Trump
will not be
coming to the
trial. Thread
here.
On
May 3, after
the
psychologist
Leslie
Lebowitz, the
plaintiff put
on her sister
Candy, Natasha
Stoynoff
and... the
Access
Hollywood
tape. Followed
up by Trump's
deposition.
Thread here.
OK,
now Carroll v.
Trump trial
Day 6, with
plaintiff's
psychologist
on the
stand.Jury
entering!
Judge
Kaplan: Ms
Kaplan,
proceed.
Carroll's
lawyer Roberta
Ann Kaplan
(RAK): Dr.
Lebowitz, have
you been
following the
trial
testimony?
Lebowitz: Some
of it.
Yesterday.
Carroll's
counsel
Roberta
Kaplan:
Understanding
that every
person is
different, are
broad
cateogies of
ways in which
-- Judge
Kaplan: You
could take
that a little
slower.
Roberta
Kaplan: Of
course, Your
Honor. Doctor,
what happens
to a person's
brain amid
trauma?
Dr
Lebowitz: Ms.
Carroll
actually
described this
well, not
feeling like
herself, being
flooded with
adrenaline or
hormones. The
front of the
brain allows
us to plan.
The rest of
the brain, we
share - we can
no longer
think, we
become
automatic
Counsel:
You're saying
trauma can
make a person
illogical? Dr
Lebowitz: Yes.
For example,
in a crisis in
Finland a
woman ran
after her hat,
not her
daughter. Or
not screaming
while being
raped in a
public
library.
Counsel: Does
a part of the
brain lag
behind? Yes
Lebowitz:
Sometimes
memories are
not stored
correctly -
for example,
only stored as
a smell, not
as a story.
What we call
flashbacks.
Counsel:
Did you
observe these
in Ms.
Carroll?
Lebowitz: Yes,
when I asked
some
questions, she
squirmed, Mr.
Trump's
fingers
Lebowitz:
Ms. Carroll
was
re-experience
Mr. Trump's
fingers in her
(pause) Or
what she
alleges to be
Mr. Trump's
fingers.
Counsel: What
are intrusive
memories?
Lebowitz: They
are like flags
planted where
traumatic
memories lie
Lebowitz:
Think of a
veteran with a
panic attack -
triggered by
the smell from
a Vietnamese
restaurant. I
can make him
aware of it.
Counsel: Ms.
Carroll
thought she
had died but
was still
alive. Can you
understand?
Lebowitz:
This is common
among
survivors of
rape.
Counsel:
What does the
phrase
self-blaming
mean?
Lebowitz: In
sexual assault
it is
unbelievably
common for
people to feel
it is their
fault. One
reason is that
the experience
of being raped
is one of
losing
control. So
self-blaming
reclaims
control
Counsel: Let's
turn to Ms.
Carroll. How
has she been
negatively
impacted?
Lebowitz:
Diminishment
in her ability
to feel good
about herself,
and lack of
intimate
romantic life
which has led
to deep
feelings of
loss. She
blamed
herself, she
felt she had
been stupid
Counsel:
How about when
Donald Trump
came forward
to run for
President?
Lebowitz: It
got worse for
Ms. Carroll.
Then, she got
better, a form
of exposure
therapy. The
brain gets to
learn, you
become less
afraid.
Ironically,
Mr. Trump's
run was
exposure
treatment
Counsel:
Is Ms. Carroll
resilient?
Lebowitz: Yes,
she is
amazing.
Counsel: What
explains that?
Lebowitz: She
had a loving
family, rough
& tumble
play. But
after the
incident with
Mr. Trump, she
shut down in
the presence
of any
eligible man,
like a
storefront
gate
Lebowitz:
She got on the
elevator and
an attractive
man got on. E.
Jean Carroll
looked at the
ground.
Counsel: How
does Ms.
Carroll's
avoidance
behavior with
eligible men
compare to her
past?
Lebowitz: Her
pattern was
partnership,
then avid
dating. She
was social
Counsel:
What about her
going back to
Bergdorf's?
Lebowitz: She
didn't blame
the store for
the rape.
Counsel: What
about her
liking The
Apprentice?
Lebowitz: She
liked the
show, to stop
watching it
would have
revealed
something and
made her stand
out
Counsel:
The camp
counselor
[Cam] could
that be the
cause?
Lebowitz: No,
she continued
happy
interaction.
Counsel: What
about Les
Moonves?
Lebowitz:
Same... And
John Johnson,
there was a
lot of respect
there.
Counsel: And
violence.
Could that be
the cause?
Lebowitz:
There was
still intimate
relations
after the
marriage.
Counsel: How
can we make
sense of the
impact of Mr
Trump's
assault?
Lebowitz: She
blamed
herself
Counsel: No
further
questions
Judge Kaplan:
Morning break.
Thread will
continue - off
to other cases
They're
back. Roberta
Kaplan: Your
Honor, we need
to know about
the defense
case.
Tacopina: I
will be making
a call at
lunch time.
Roberta
Kaplan: We've
prefer to know
at the
beginning of
the lunch
break
Judge
Kaplan: Cross
examination,
Mr. Seigel.
Trump's lawyer
Chad Seigel:
Dr Lebowitz,
you are
getting paid
$600 an hour,
correct?
Lebowitz: Yes.
Seigel: On
direct you
testified
about the
supposed ways
Ms. Carroll
has been
negatively
impacted -
it's not an
opinion?
Judge
Kaplan: That's
compound.
Seigel: OK. Ms
Carroll - no,
I'm sorry, Dr
Lebowitz - you
are simply
assuming it
happened,
correct?
Lebowitz: I'm
focused on
consequences.
Seigel: You
are assuming
the rape
occurred?
Lebowitz: I
have no
opinion on
that.
Seigel:
To be clear,
you have no
independent
knowledge
whether that
alleged sexual
assault took
place or not?
Lebowitz:
Right. Seigel:
If she made it
all up, it
would be a
problem for
your theory,
right?
Lebowitz: Yes.
Seigel:
You are
familiar with
malingering -
meaning lying?
Lebowitz: Yes.
Seigel: Ms.
Carroll has a
vested
interest in
the outcome of
this case,
right?
Lebowitz: I'm
not sure what
you mean.
Seigel: She
may have
presented her
symptom to
benefit her
case?
Lebowitz:
I don't think
so. She is
adverse to
being
symptomatic.
Seigel: You
took Ms.
Carroll's word
for it?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Inner City
Press
@innercitypress
· 6h Seigel:
Aren't there
objective
psychological
tests?
Lebowitz: Some
are not
accurate.
Seigel: You
didn't use any
tests.
Lebowitz: The
so-called
objective test
does not
address
flashbacks.
Seigel:
In her book
she says, I
rarely thought
of this. This
is
inconsistent
with what she
told you,
right?
Lebowitz: No.
Seigel: I
direct your
attention to
line 26 --
Judge Kaplan:
Here is an
objection.
Carroll's
lawyer: The
quote must go
further.
Seigel: OK
Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Seigel, you're
going to have
to get thing
together. This
has been going
on for 7 days.
Seigal: Dr
Lebowitz, do
you see --
Judge Kaplan:
Just read it!
We all know
she can read
it. I don't
know what you
are doing.
Just get with
it
Seigel:
Is it your
position these
two
statements, I
rarely thought
of it, are
consistent?
Lebowitz: Yes.
It is all
consistent.
Seigel: What
you mean by is
that people
may say
different
things in
different
settings,
correct?
Lebowitz:
She doesn't
want to seem
hurt Seigel: I
want to know
you Ms.
Carroll's
October 14,
2022
deposition...
She said, "I
would have
said, I rarely
think of it."
You'd agree
that a
deposition is
not the same
as a
courtroom?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Seigel:
Dr Lebowitz,
are you aware
Ms. Carroll
described
herself as a
big fan of The
Apprentice?
Lebowitz: She
said she
appreciated
the artistry
of the show.
Seigel: But
she told you
she didn't
watch the show
a lot -
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Asked and
answered
Seigel:
Dr Lebowitz,
there is no
diagnosis to
support Ms.
Carroll's
allegation in
this case, is
there?
Carroll's
lawyer: Your
Honor, could
we have a
sidebar? Judge
Kaplan: OK.
[Sidebar
ensues]
They
are back.
Seigel: Are
you aware Ms.
Carroll said
on a podcast
that it may
not have been
her Donald
Trump
allegation
that causd her
romantic
shutdown?
Lebowitz: I
think she said
in the podcast
that one
creates one's
own luck.
Seigel:
Dr. Lebowitz,
do you recall
- Judge
Kaplan: Not a
memory quiz.
Seigel: OK, I
direct your
attention to
lines 3 though
10. [
Pause ] Judge
Kaplan: Folks
- tempus
fugit. I
apologize for
the Latin. It
means, time
flies.
Seigel:
Dr Lebowitz,
when you were
deposed in
March, you
could not
provide any
examples of
reactions that
would be
inconsistent
with being
raped, right?
Dr Lebowitz:
There are a
lot of
negatives in
that.
Carroll's
lawyer: Can we
get a line
number?
Seigel:
Line 2.
Seigel: You
have no
independent
knowledge if
the alleged
rape occurred?
Lebowitz: I do
not. Seigel:
Nothing
further. Judge
Kaplan:
Redirect? No.
OK, 2 pm
folks.
They're
back.
Carroll's
counsel: This
afternoon
we'll have E.
Jean Carroll's
sister and
Natasha
Stoynoff.
Tomorrow we'll
have Carol
Martin..
Tacopina: Our
proposed
witness, there
have been
health
issues...
Tacopina:
They proposed
putting in the
Billy Bush
tape, or the -
Judge Kaplan:
We all know
what you're
talking about.
Tacopina: They
shouldn't play
it twice.
Judge Kaplan:
You don't
contest that
it is
authentic, do
you? I
consider only
serious
objections.
Jury
entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Ladies and
gentlemen,
given what
I've heard
from the
lawyers, and
bearing in
mind I'm not
in the
insurance
writing
business, you
can expect to
get the case
early next
week.
Judge
Kaplan:
Re-direct.
Carroll's
lawyer: Let's
return to Ms.
Carroll's
response...
Lebowitz: She
got a gun and
learned to
shoot. She was
afraid.
Ongoing fear.
Carroll's
lawyer: Mr.
Seigel asked
you about
psychological
instruments...
Lebowitz:
There are
tests
Lebowitz:
Like the one
where they ask
are you
sleeping, are
you drinking,
yes or no
questions.
There are
others, I'm
not sure why
they are
called
objective. You
can still
present
yourself the
way you want
to. In a long
conversation
it's harder.
Counsel:
Have you dealt
with people
who
exaggerated?
Lebowitz: Yes.
I used to come
up in the
Veterans
Administration,
to get PTSD
benefits.
Others were
hyperbolic. Do
you have a
follow up
question?
Counsel: No,
thanks. Does
Ms. Carroll
exaggerate or
minimize?
Lebowitz:
Ms. Carroll
understands
adversity.
Counsel: Mr.
Seigel asked
you about
malingering...
Do you have an
opinion if she
is? Long
sidebar ensues
- then jury
sent out of
courtroom so
they can read
back Seigel's
questioning
about
Carroll's
"vested
interest"
Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Seigel, the
opinion you
are trying to
exclude you
yourself
elicited this
morning. The
answer you
don't want to
hear you
already
elicited,
isn't that
true? And if
not, why not?
Seigel: I only
asked if why
may have
malingered.
Judge
Kaplan: I'll
try to
suppress my
inherent bent
toward
irony... The
issue here is
not what you
were talking
about - what
you are trying
to exclude, is
already in.
Seigel:
I didn't open
the door -
Judge Kaplan:
We're not
talking about
that. The door
is closed
Judge
Kaplan: ...
and the horse
is out of the
barn.
Tacopina: I
think you are
right, Your
Honor. Even a
broken clock
is right two
times a day
(laughs) Judge
Kaplan: You
win, Mr.
Seigel.
Tacopina: It
doesn't feel
like a win.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's get the
jury
Jury
entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Re-cross.
Seigel: You
have no direct
knowledge of
if the rape
happened or
not, do you?
Lebowitz: I do
not. Seigel:
No more
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
Next witness.
It's Candy
Carroll, E.
Jean Carroll's
sister.
Carroll's
counsel: Where
did you grow
up? Candy
Carroll: Fort
Wayne,
Indiana. My
mother was
Betty McKenny
(sp)...
Counsel: What
was your
mother's
profession?
Candy: She was
a homemaker.
Our father ran
a store
Counsel:
How would you
describe your
family
environment
when it came
to sharing
negative
things? Candy
Carroll: We
were private.
And always
project a good
positive
attitude. My
dad would tell
me, Smile. My
mother was
behind it all
the way.
Candy:
When Jean
graduated, she
want to
Madison,
Wisconsin. We
were no longer
sharing a
room, so we
became
friends.
Later, we
worked
together on
the Hunter S.
Thompson
biography. We
created a
website I
curated of her
advice columns
After
short direct,
Judge Kaplan:
Cross
examination?
Trump's lawyer
Brandt: Just a
few questions.
For how many
years did you
share a
bedroom with
E. Jean? Candy
Carroll: 14
years or so.
Brandt: Then
you stayed in
touch, &
in the 1990s
you were in
daily contact
Yes
Brandt:
And the first
you heard of
any alleged
sexual assault
by Donald
Trump was by
email? Candy
Carroll: Yes.
It was a link.
Brandt: No
further
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's take our
break. 15
minutes.
We're
back. Judge
Kaplan: Next
witness. It's
Natasha
Stoynoff.
Carroll's
lawyer: Where
were you
working in
1992?
Stoynoff:
In Toronto. I
write for the
Toronto Sun.
Counsel: And
in 1997?
Stoynoff: I
moved to New
York. I was on
contract with
People
magazine.
Counsel:
What did you
work on at
People
magazine?
Stoynoff:
Mostly
entertainment.
Counsel: Were
you even on a
beat involving
Donald Trump?
Stoynoff: I
was on the
Trump beat
starting in
2003 or 2004,
The
Apprentice. I
covered his
wedding to
Melania, at
Mar-a-Lago.
Stoynoff:
I did a story
on Ivanka's
wedding, I
can't remember
to whom.
Counsel: Did
cover his
first year
anniversary
and birth of
Baron?
Stoynoff: Yes,
he was married
to Melania
(voice cracks)
Counsel: Do
you need a
moment?
Stoynoff: No,
I'm okay.
Counsel:
Let me show
you
Plaintiff's
Exhibit 17.
Stoynoff: It's
a group photo
at Mar-a-Lago.
That's me. And
that's Donald
Trump, and
Melania.
Counsel: How
did you do
your
interviews?
Stoynoff:
Around the
photo shoots.
Then try to
get them
together, for
some banter
Counsel:
Was there a
break between
interviews?
What happened?
Stoynoff:
Melania had
just finished
a photo shoot
by the pool.
She went up to
change. Donald
said, come see
this great
room with a
painting. He
led the way. I
followed him
down a hall...
Counsel:
What happened
next? Stoynoff
(sobs) I'm
thinking,
really nice
room. The door
shuts behind
me. He pushes
me against the
wall and
starts kissing
me. I tried to
push him away.
Counsel: Had
anything been
said?
Stoynoff: No.
Not that I
recall.
Stoynoff:
Then the
butler came in
and Mr Trump
stopped.
I gave him a
Get me out of
here look. We
went back.
Trump said,
"You know
we're going to
have an
affair. Don't
forget what
Marla said,
Best Sex I
Ever Had.
We'll go to
Peter Luger's
& have an
affair
Carroll's
counsel: At
some point did
Marla return -
oh, sorry, did
Melania
return?
Stoynoff: Yes.
I continued
the interview.
It was not
easy. I had my
questions with
me. I had to
go back with
my work down.
I was an
auto-pilot.
Carroll's
counsel: Do
you vote?
Stoynoff: I
have voted 3
times. Twice
for President
Obama. I don't
remember the
third.
Carroll's
counsel: Did
you vote for
Hillary
Clinton?
Stoynoff: No.
Counsel: Have
you voted for
conservative
candidates in
Canada?
Stoynoff: Yes
Counsel:
Were you happy
or sad when
Mr. Trump was
voted out?
Stoynoff:
Happy.
Counsel: Has
Ms Carroll
interviewed
you? Stoynoff:
In the summer
of 2020...
Counsel:
About?
Stoynoff: The
incident. My
life.
Counsel: Did
it change your
recollection?
Stoynoff: No
Stoynoff:
I saw Anderson
Cooper ask him
if he had
kissed any
woman without
consent and he
said no. I
thought,
voters should
know. Counsel:
May I
approach?
Stoynoff: It's
the Access
Hollywood clip
that you
showed
me.
Counsel:
Plaintiff's
25-T, a
transcript.
Counsel:
We offer 25
and 25-T.
Tacopina:
Preserving
previous
objections.
Judge Kaplan:
No
authenticity
problem?
Tacopina: No.
Carroll's
counsel: I
have copies of
the transcript
to hand out.
Judge Kaplan:
Go ahead.
Carroll's
counsel: Let's
play
Plaintiff's
25. "I moved
on her
heavily, like
a bitch. Now
she's got the
phony t*ts"
"My man!" "I
just start
kissing
them... When
you're a star,
you can do
anything. Grab
'em by the
p*ssy" "C'mon
shorty"
"Always when
you don't
fall"
Carroll's
counsel: Did
you see this
when it aired?
Stoynoff: Yes.
I was sick to
my stomach and
a little bit
of relief. I
thought, Oh,
he does this
to a lot of
women. The
horrifying
part (sob) is
I worried
because I
didn't say
anything at
the time,
others were
hurt
Carroll's
counsel: Is
this the
debate?
Anderson
Cooper? We
don't have to
play it again.
How did you
feel?
Stoynoff:
People
magazine asked
if I wanted to
write about
it. They knew.
I said, Let's
see how he
answers in the
debate. He
lied and I
thought, You
liar.
Judge
Kaplan: Cross
examination?
Tacopina: Ms.
Stoynoff,
you have no
legal claim
against Donald
Trump?
Stoynoff: I do
not. Tacopina:
No further
questions.
Roberta
Kaplan: We're
going to play
portions of
Mr. Trump's
deposition.
Judge Kaplan:
Go ahead
[Playing
for jury] Q:
In the course
of your
married life
and your
dating life
did you have
occasion to
buy gifts?
Trump: Not
much. Q: For
your wives?
and woman you
were dating?
Trump:
Probable.
Q:
In your first
marriage, you
saw women
outside of the
marriage?
Trump: I don't
know. Q: Did
you go to
Bergdorf
Goodman?
Trump: Rarely.
Almost never.
Q: What did
you shop for?
Trump: I don't
know.
[Still
from
deposition,
played for
jury. Trump in
blue suit,
light blue
tie] Q: Have
you read Ms.
Carroll's
book? Trump:
Never saw it.
Q: You
responded to
the excerpt in
NY Magazine -
here's a
tweet. You
said, I've
never met her.
Book should be
in fiction
section
Q:
Do you recall
your interview
with The Hill?
Trump: Yes. I
think it was
in the Oval
Office. Q: You
said, She's
not my type.
Trump: Yes...
You're talking
about a major
store. It's
just made up.
Judge Kaplan:
We're going to
break for the
day. Counsel,
stay.
Jury
leaves. Judge
Kaplan: We
should finish
after lunch
tomorrow.
Summations -
what are you
thoughts on
duration? Ms.
Kaplan?
Roberta
Kaplan: Two
hours for
closing, an
hour rebuttal.
Tacopina: Two
and a half
hours, give or
take.
Judge
Kaplan: I'll
have the draft
charge 8 am
Monday
morning. We'll
have the
charge
conference
here at 9.
Then
summations 10
am Monday,
shorten the
lunch and get
them done
before we're
done for the
day. The
charge will be
an hour, on
Tuesday and
they
deliberate
Judge
Kaplan: Mr.
Tacopina, you
got that?
Tacopina: Yes.
Judge Kaplan:
Mr. Seigel,
you were
rising?
Seigel: We
object and
move to strike
Ms Stoynoff's
testimony.
Judge Kaplan:
Denied. Jury
could
reasonably
find there was
a sexual
assault,
actual or
attempt. I
conclude Yes
There
will be more
on May 4 -
then closings
set for May 8.
More
on Substack here.
Watch
this site.
Court
art: Tacopina
and Judge
Kaplan,
courtesy to
Inner City
Press from
Elizabeth
Williams
***
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