As Joe
Tacopina Says
Trump Will Not
Testify Bid To
Unseal
Motions,
Exhibits &
Deposition
by
Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book
Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE,
May 4 – When
E. Jean
Carroll
testified on
April 26 on
direct
examination
about Donald
Trump
allegedly
raping her in
Bergdorf
Goodman's in
1996, then
defaming her
in 2019,
Trump's lawyer
Joe Tacopina
repeatedly
objected.
U.S. District
Court for the
Southern
District of
New York
Judge Louis A.
Kaplan denied
most
objections -
and told
Tacopina that
his client
might be
subjecting
himself to
liability
under other
Federal
statutes with
his posts on
Truth Social
(and his son
Eric's
statements).
Early on May
1, Trump's
lawyer
Tacopina filed
an 18-page
motion for a
mistrial.
Motion on
Patreon
here.
Inner
City Press
live tweeted
the direct
testimony,
thread here
Then
on April 27,
the cross
examination,
here
On May 1, the
cross
examination
continued,
Thread here.
May
2 saw Lisa
Birnbach and
Jessica Leeds,
a Bergdorf
supervisor and
the
plaintiff's
psychological
expert,
concluding
with
confirmation
that Trump
will not be
coming to the
trial. Thread
here.
On
May 3, after
the
psychologist
Leslie
Lebowitz, the
plaintiff put
on her sister
Candy, Natasha
Stoynoff
and... the
Access
Hollywood
tape. Followed
up by Trump's
deposition.
Thread here.
On
May 4 Carroll
put on Carol
Martin and a
professor of
social media,
then rested.
While Tacopina
said he'd
heard from
Trump in the
morning he
would not
come, Judge
Kaplan cited
statements "in
the British
Isles" and
left the door
open for a
motion under
Sunday, 5 pm.
Thread here.
Jury
entering!
Judge
Kaplan: We'll
continue
playing Mr.
Trump's
deposition.
Q:
Who is in this
photo? Trump:
John
Johnson... I
thought he was
good at what
he did, seemed
like a nice
guy, I don't
know. Q: You
said Ms
Carroll was
trying to sell
a book. Trump:
Right
Q:
Did you know
anything about
the financial
arrangement
between Ms.
Carroll and
her publisher?
Trump: I have
no idea. Q:
Did anyone on
your team do
any research
into Ms.
Carroll?
Trump: Not
that I know.
It's possible.
[Deposition
playing for
jury] Trump: I
think she's
sick, mentally
sick....
Didn't she say
it was sexy to
be raped?
Didn't she
tell Anderson
Cooper that?
By the way,
rape is not
sexy.
Judge
Kaplan: Pause!
We've got to
back up, an
A/V problem.
Now it's
fixed.
[Deposition
video
re-starts]
Trump, to
Roberta
Kaplan: You're
a political
operative too.
You're a
disgrace. Q:
You called it
a hoax, I take
it you're
saying Ms.
Carroll
fabricated?
Yes.
[Depo]
Q: You use
hoax a lot.
Can you give
examples?
Trump: Sure.
Ukraine. Lying
to the FISA
court. Lying
to Congress -
hoax, lying by
this scum we
have in this
country. They
spied on my
campaign. I
could get a
whole list of
them. This is
a hoax too.
[Depo]
Q:
Didn't you
also refer to
the use of
mail-in
ballots as a
hoax? Trump:
Yes. Q: Don't
you vote by
mail? Trump: I
do. But I have
no idea what
happened to it
afterwards.
[In
depo, Trump is
played the
Access
Hollywood
tape] Trump:
"Now she's got
the big phony
t*ts.. When
you're a star,
they let you
do it. You can
do anything.
Grab 'em by
the p*ssy....
Always good
you don't fall
out of the
bus, remember
Gerald Ford?
Billy Bush"
[Deposition
continues] Q:
You said, You
can grab 'em
by the p*ssy?
Trump:
Historically
it's been
true. If you
look back, at
stars. Q: Are
you familiar
with Natasha
Stoynoff?
Trump. No. Q:
She wrote
about you at
People
magazine?
Trump: She
said I was
aggressive...
[Depo]
Trump: She
wrote a nice
story, then
came up with
this phony
charge Q: Let
me show you a
video. [On it:
Trump: The
story about
Melania and I,
our first
anniversary -
now 12 years
later, she
says I made
inappropriate
advances. Why
wasn't it part
of the story?
[Depo]
Q: What do you
mean by, Would
not be my
first choice?
Trump (to
Roberta
Kaplan) You
wouldn't be my
first choice
either, I hope
you're not
insulted.
[With
depo show
over, Judge
Kaplan says,
Next witness.
It's Carol
Martin.]
Martin: My
name is
Frances Carol
Martin. Judge
Kaplan: You
may proceed,
Ms. Kaplan.
Counsel: How
long have you
known Ms.
Carroll?
Martin: 30
years.
Counsel:
When did
America's
Talking
broadcast?
Martin: July
4, 1994 to
July 4, 1996.
In Fort Lee,
NJ. Counsel:
You worked
there then?
Martin: Yes
Counsel: Roger
Ailes was
involved?
Martin: Yes.
Counsel: What
did you do
next? Martin:
The People's
Court with Ed
Koch
Counsel:
What did you
do with E.
Jean Carroll
at that time?
Martin: What I
call aging
women things -
lots of
lunches,
comedy clubs,
things we
liked to do.
Counsel: Did
Ms. Carroll
tell you about
Bergdorf
Goodman?
Martin: Yes.
We went from
the studio to
my house.
Counsel:
Did you think?
Martin:
Something and
I'm not
exactly sure
what. Counsel:
What did Ms.
Carroll say?
Martin: She
said, Trump
attacked me.
Counsel: Did
you know who
she meant?
Martin: There
is only only
Trump I knew.
Part of the
landscape.
Counsel:
Was she
crying?
Martin: No.
But she was
upset,
frenzied.
Counsel: Did
you touch E.
Jean? Martin:
We hugged. It
was
disconcerting.
Counsel: Did
Ms. Carroll
say what she
planned to do?
Martin:
She said she'd
called Lisa
Birnbaum and
said, go to
the police
Martin: I told
her Donald
Trump has a
lot of
attorneys and
he would bury
her... Then
when she told
me she was
dedicating the
book to me and
Lisa, for
"keeping the
covenant." She
said -
Tacopina: I
have to
object. Judge
Kaplan:
Overruled
Counsel:
Did Ms Carroll
give you a
draft? Martin:
Yes, at a
dinner on the
Upper West
Side also with
Lisa & her
husband
Michael. She
brought 11
pages.
Counsel: Did
you discuss
it?
Martin: No. I
didn't read it
right away.
Counsel: Did
you plan to
come forward?
No.
Martin:
It was 2019, I
was worried
about the
climate of the
country,
security, so
were members
of my family.
Counsel: Did
you later
agree to be
identified?
Martin: Yes.
On the NYT's
The Daily
podcast.
Counsel: Still
concerned
about
security?
Martin: Yes.
Counsel:
Do you like
Donald Trump?
Martin: Not
particularly.
My world view
is very
different. And
some in his
party.
Counsel: Are
you testifying
because of
your political
views? Martin:
No. Counsel:
Did you have
to give a
deposition?
Martin: Yes.
Counsel:
Is that your
email?
[Exhibit on
screen] Judge
Kaplan: You
may want to
change it.
[Note: so far,
virtually none
of the
exhibits in
the case,
shown to the
jury and
therefore
presumptively
public, are
available to
the public or
press. That
may change...
The
email - Inner
City Press has
seen the
address &
is voluntarily
not publishing
it - is about
"Nambia."
Martin: I
thought he
should have
known better
Counsel: You
said to Ms
Carroll that
when better
you and she
should
scheme...
Martin: There
were health
concerns
Counsel: Why
are you here
today?
Martin:
To recount
what my friend
told me in
1996, I
believed it
then and I
believe it
now- Tacopina:
Objection.
It's
inappropriate
and should be
stricken.
Judge Kaplan:
I'll strike
that last
sentence.
We'll break
for 15 minutes
[Before
the break,
Roberta Kaplan
said "no
further
questions. So
in 15 minutes,
the cross
examination -
as short as
with Ms.
Stoynoff?]
Going to check
Ed Sheeran /
Let's Get It
On trial jury
deliberations,
and check
other cases.
Feed will
continue.
They've
back. But
before jury
comes in:
Judge Kaplan:
I understand
the media
wants access
to the
exhibits. Talk
to the
parties...
[But they've
said no] Jury
entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Mr. Tacopina?
Tacopina: Ms.
Martin, you
have donated
some ten times
to liberals?
Martin:
Yes... Small
donations.
Tacopina: You
turned over
some texts and
emails in
discovery?
Martin: Yes.
Tacopina: I'm
going to
discuss a few
of them with
you. We'll go
one by one.
Martin: I want
the addresses
out...
Tacopina:
Let's look at
these exhibits
-- Judge
Kaplan: Why
don't you just
ask if she has
said these
things?
Tacopina: I
want to ask.
Ms. Martin,
did you say
this man is
spreading his
stank all
over? Martin:
Sounds like
me.
Tacopina:
Here you are
writing about
Ivanka Trump
at the G20
meeting, you
say how can
they sit there
and quote
Charles Blow's
tweets - yes?
Martin: That's
how I felt.
Tacopina: You
called them
the two junior
grifters - who
are they?
Martin: Ivanka
and Jared
Tacopina:
Ms. Martin,
what is a
scheme?
Martin: To put
together a
plan.
Tacopina: A
secret?
Martin: Not
necessarily.
This was right
after the
election of
Mr. Trump.
This was a
typical
conversation.
Tacopina: Ms.
Carroll said,
I have
something
special for
you
Martin:
I think she
was referring
to the stuffed
squirrel she
gave as a
gift.
Tacopina: When
did you think
of that?
Martin: I
don't know.
Tacopina: I'm
going to go to
the deposition
--
Roberta
Kaplan:
Objection your
Honor
Tacopina:
During this
time you were
married to
Joseph Perry?
Martin: Yes.
Tacopina: But
no one else
was in the
house? Martin:
No they were
not. Tacopina:
Ms. Carroll
said she felt
physically OK?
Martin: Maybe
[not?] in so
many words...
Tacopina:
reading from
the
deposition,
you said she
felt OK, so
you told her
-- Judge
Kaplan: Please
get to the
question.
Tacopina: I'm
just setting
it up. Judge
Kaplan:
Questions, not
setting up.
We're not
setting up in
a restaurant.
Tacopina:
I'll forget
that
Tacopina asks
another
question.
Judge Kaplan:
Argumentative.
[Reads
definition
from Black's
Law
Dictionary]
Tacopina: Then
you
communicated
with the
lawyer Noah
[Noam] Biale?
Martin:
I was told I
needed a
lawyer.
Tacopina:
You wrote, No
more texts
until further
notice. Why?
Martin: I'm
not sure what
I meant by
that. But I
was told
someone would
be coming to
subpoena me
for this case.
Tacopina: Is
that it?
Martin: Is
that it??
Tacopina: Is
that what you
wanted to say?
Yes
Tacopina:
I'd like to
show you
Defense
Exhibit ER,
you told a
friend that
Ms. Carroll
intended to
sue Donald
Trump for
rape, that
"it's gone to
another level"
and that for
Ms. Carroll
"this quest
has become a
life style."
Martin: I know
what I meant.
Tacopina:
What did you
mean? Martin:
I was being
hyperbolic.
Lifestyle is a
word I use.
Tacopina: I'm
going to show
you a text you
sent to your
daughter in
which you're
venting...
Martin: I'm
not sure I'm
seeing the
right one.
Tacopina:
You said Ms.
Carroll was
loving the
adulation?
Martin: Yes.
Tacopina: You
wrote, In too
deep, I'm just
not there for
it Judge
Kaplan: How
much longer,
Mr. Tacopina?
Tacopina: Ten
minutes. I'll
finish after
lunch. Judge
Kaplan: You're
telling the
jurors
Judge
Kaplan: Lunch
break, then.
OK
- they've back
- and Judge
Kaplan is
responding to
the letter
Inner City
Press emailed
to chambers
and the
parties late
morning. He
says the
parties must
respond by
Saturday - and
he'll GRANT
Inner City
Press' request
to unseal
motion, but
only AFTER
verdict.
Tacopina:
When you were
meeting with
[likeminded]
people around
the 2016
election, you
never brought
up that your
friend told
you she had
been raped by
Donald Trump?
Martin: No.
Tacopina:
Thank you very
much for your
time. Nothing
further.
Judge
Kaplan:
Re-direct.
Carroll's
lawyer: Do you
recall giving
this testimony
at your
deposition,
page 65, When
you were
venting to
your daughter,
did you doubt
E. Jean's
story? A: No
reason to
doubt it.
Martin: I
recall that
Counsel:
Would you lie
to stop the
Trump train,
in this trial,
would you
perjure
yourself?
Martin: No, of
course not.
Counsel:
Nothing
further. Judge
Kaplan:
Re-cross?
Tacopina:
Would you have
said these
things to Ms.
Carroll's
face? Martin:
Yes, I think
so
Judge
Kaplan: Thank
you, Ms.
Martin, you're
excused. Next
witness. It's
Professor
Ashlee
Humphreys of
Northwestern.
Counsel: What
was your Ph.D
in? Humphreys:
Cultural
sociology and
marketing.
Counsel:
Professor
Humphreys, are
you being paid
for this?
Humphreys:
Yes. $500 for
preparation,
$850 for
testimony.
Counsel:
That's per
hour?
Humphreys:
Yes. Counsel:
Let's go to
the
deck...
[Now published
to the jury -
will parties
seek to seal,
on Saturday?]
Counsel:
How many
followers does
Trump have on
Truth Social?
Humphreys: 4.7
million
Counsel: How
did your
measure how
his statements
injured Ms.
Carroll?
Humphreys: Let
me explain
Counsel:
How many
articles did
you consider?
Humphreys: Of
the 60 in the
complaint by
Ms. Carroll
against Mr.
Trump, I chose
17. Counsel:
What website?
Humphreys:
HuffPost,
WaPo, ABC,
etc. I figured
how many
people visit
each, by page
views Inner
City Press
Counsel:
Why did you
only consider
Twitter and
Truth Social?
Humphreys:
Twitter is
very
transparent...
I considered
13
tweets.
Remember, not
all of your
followers see
all of your
tweets.
And some are
bots. I took
those out -
about 12% of
followers
Humphreys:
Truth Social
is
structurally
similar to
Twitter, but
it hasn't been
studied as
much. And you
don't
transparently
have re-Tweet
[re-Truth]
information.
I figured the
same
percentages.
The statement,
it was only
MSNBC and
Fox. 7
million
impressions
Humphreys:
I studied
portrayals of
Ms. Carroll
before the
Trump stories.
She was
considered a
sassy advice
columnist
about
relationships...
Then, words
like "lair
etcetera"...
Humphreys:
I calculated
how much it
would cost to
run counter
messages, on
cable TV there
are rates,
also for
influencers
and
micro-influencers.
It's called
reputation
repair, with
corrective
messaging.
Counsel: How
much would it
cost?
Humphreys: On
TV, $133,000
Counsel:
And on all
platforms,
added?
Humphreys: It
was $2.7
million.
Counsel: No
further
questions.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's take our
break, 15
minutes. Feed
will continue
- now to other
cases.
They're
back. Before
the jury comes
in: Carroll's
counsel: We
have an
evidentiary
issue - we
want to
introduce a
paragraph from
Mr. Trump's
book, think
like a
billionaire.
Judge Kaplan:
What's the
problem, Mr.
Tacopina?
Tacopina:
There was a
co-author.
Judge
Kaplan: We can
deal with that
later. Bring
in the
jury.... Cross
examination.
Trump's
lawyer:
Professor
Humphreys you
were paid to
study the
impact of Mr.
Trump's
statements?
Judge Kaplan:
Can we avoid
the obvious?
Trump's
lawyer: Is
there harm
from false
accusations of
rape?
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection!
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Trump's
lawyer: What
about Ms.
Carroll's
appearances on
podcasts?
Humphreys: No.
Trump's
lawyer: Fair
to say that
those on Truth
Social mostly
support Mr.
Trump?
Humphreys:
That's likely
true. Trump's
lawyer: You
didn't
consider
positive
statements
about Ms.
Carroll?
Humphreys: I
saw them, but
they didn't
require
correction
Trump's
lawyer: Did
you consider
Ms. Carroll's
book and
excerpt in The
Cut -
Carroll's
lawyer:
Objection.
Asked and
answered.
Judge Kaplan:
Sustained.
Trump's lawyer
Brandt: No
further
questions
Judge
Kaplan: Next
witness.
Jurors, we may
go past 4:30
pm. Any
problem, raise
your hand. No
hands raised.
Witness is
Roberta Myers,
former Elle
editor.
Carroll's
counsel: When
were you an
editor at
Elle? Myers:
1993 to 1995.
I also worked
for NBC,
Seventeen
Counsel:
How do you
know Ms.
Carroll:
Myers: We
worked
together.
Counsel: Have
you met the
defendant,
Donald Trump?
Myers:
I was on an
episode of the
Apprentice.
Counsel: Did
you support
him in 2016 or
2020? Myers:
No. I'm a
Democrat.
Cross
examination.
Trump's
lawyer: How
did you leave
Elle? Myers:
Not
voluntarily.
No re-direct.
Judge Kaplan:
I'm assuming
there are no
more
witnesses...
Let me see
counsel at
sidebar.
Judge
Kaplan returns
and says, I am
ruling "in the
event Mr.
Trump for
whatever
reason
testifies in
this case."
Could / would
he get back
from the UK by
Monday, before
closing
arguments? He
seemed to say
he might
Jury
entering!
Judge Kaplan:
Any evidence
by the
plaintiff?
Carroll's
lawyer: Yes,
we have a
stipulation,
that
"plaintiff E.
Jean Carroll
produced
diaries,
including
entries that
she was
distraught by
political
developments,
a death, and
that she hit
her back"
Carroll's
counsel:
Plaintiff
rests her
case. Judge
Kaplan: We
will almost
certain
reconvene
Monday at 10.
But we need
contact
information on
how to let you
know if things
change.
Judge
Kaplan: You
each call in
after 10 pm on
Sunday. Until
you hear
different,
we'll see you
10 am Monday.
Thank you and
have a great
weekend.
Jury leaves.
Judge Kaplan:
Any motions?
Tacopina: We
move for a
judgment as a
matter of law.
Judge Kaplan:
Denied.
Tacopina:
We rest out
rest. Judge
Kaplan: So Mr.
Trump waives
his right to
testify?
Tacopina: He
does. Judge
Kaplan: How
recently have
you spoken
with him?
Tacopina: A
few minutes
before I came
into court
this morning.
Judge
Kaplan: I am
committed to
allowing
parties to
make their
case. I will
allow Mr.
Trump up to 10
pm Sunday to
make a motion
to testify -
I'm not saying
I'll grant it,
but I'll
consider it
and we'll see
what happens.
10 pm Sunday,
that's it.
Tell Mr. Trump
Tacopina:
I could do 10
am Sunday.
Judge Kaplan:
Let's do 5 pm
Sunday. There
have been news
reports out of
the British
Isles
attributed to
Mr. Trump
about his
possible
testifying
here. So I've
taken
precautions.
Tacopino: I
propose 2
hours each
side.
Carroll's
counsel: We
need 2 hours
and 45
minutes. Judge
Kaplan: Two
hours each?
Carroll's
counsel: I'm
negotiating
against
myself, but
two and a half
would be
OK.
Judge Kaplan:
Let me get out
my slider
rule. I don't
want to show
my age or
anything.
Tacopina:
Plaintiff 10
to noon.
Defense from 1
to 3:30.
Judge Kaplan:
That'd work
unless we have
a media event
outside.
[There is
laughter.]
Tacopina: Ed
Sheeran is
gone. [More
laughter]
Judge
Kaplan: Who
won?
Tacopina:
Ed Sheeran.
Roberta
Kaplan: As to
the media
request, if
the email
addresses are
taken out, we
have no
problem.
Judge
Kaplan: I want
the media to
understand,
either do I,
as long as
emails out - I
mean,
addresses -
but my whole
staff is here.
So, work it
out.
Tacopina:
What about the
charging
conference?
Judge Kaplan:
I am to know
if I am
calling the
jury off at 10
am Monday.
Tacopina: Why
would you?
Judge
Kaplan: If
there is a
motion made.
You say you
don't want and
I believe in
your heart of
hearts you
don't, but...
Tacopina: So,
draft charge 8
am, and we
come in 9 am
[Monday] Judge
Kaplan: Have a
good weekend.
Leaves.
As
noted, in the
middle Inner
City Press
filed a
request to
unseal not
only motions
but also all
exhibits in
the case
including
video
depositions.
Request here.
Citing Inner
City Press'
request, Judge
Kaplan called
for a response
by Saturday. Carroll's
counsel said
other than
email
addresses they
don't have a
problem. So
when will we
get them? Watch
this site.
Closings
are still set
for May 8.
More
on Substack here.
Watch this
site.
Court
art: Tacopina
and Judge
Kaplan,
courtesy to
Inner City
Press from
Elizabeth
Williams
***
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